SC-4C not picking up star when tracking

Discussion in 'Guiding and Adaptive Optics - StarChaser and AO' started by Michael Rodruck, Aug 30, 2025.

  1. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    I have an SC-4C I use for guiding my 47-10. I can run the calibration step under the Guide tab in the Camera Control window in Maxim DL to calibrate the guider, which works properly, but when I select "Track", the guider is not able to track. The SNR of the star listed in the Camera Control window will be very low, like 0 or less than 1, despite the star in the Autoguider Image window appearing quite clearly. If I disconnect both the 47-10 and the SC-4C cameras on the Camera Control window, then reconnect, redo the calibration, then the guider is able to track. While this eventually works, it's rather inconvenient. For reference, the star I'm using for tracking tonight was initially reading an SNR of 0, but after doing the reset, it's at an SNR of 40.

    Has this been seen before? I am running Maxim DL 7.1.4.
     
  2. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    Other strange behavior: I'm doing a long set of exposures, using a 5 second exposure for guiding. The guide star faded from view after about two hours of observing. I stopped tracking, and did a single 5 second exposure on the Guide tab. The image was completely blank, with every pixel at 0 counts. I switched to a 4 second exposure and a 6 second exposure, and both of those were able to show stars. I've set it to tracking using 6 second exposures, and that seems to be working well for now.
     
  3. Colin Haig

    Colin Haig Staff Member

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    I haven't heard of this.
    Update to current software, MaxIm 7.2.2. This will update the DLAPI.dll to the latest version 4.1.2.5.
    We made several improvements.
    DL Config x64 - Help ... About will show the version of dlapi.dll
    MaxIm - Help... Check for Updates.
     
  4. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    Thanks, I will try that.

    Also, the same behavior happened with the 6 second exposures. After maybe 2 hours the images went dark and nothing was showing up. 4 second and 7 second exposures showed stars, but 5 and 6 second exposures were blank. Disconnecting and reconnecting the cameras via Maxim DL was able to fix this, and the exposures were again seeing the sky. I'm not sure if this helps, but I'm attaching a 5 second exposure before (*blank.fit) and after (*restart.fits) restarting the camera. It's blank prior to the restart, and normal after the restart.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Colin Haig

    Colin Haig Staff Member

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    Update the software.
    Another possibility - I wonder if the mechanical shutter is sticking. When you change exposure length with Auto dark frame subtraction turned on, it will shoot a dark at the new exposure time, then the light.
    You could set up an autosave sequence to exercise alternating light and darks, and see what happens.
    However, start with updating software first.
     
  6. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    I've updated the software to 7.2.2 but unfortunately I'm still running into the issue of Maxim not recognizing the autoguider star. Maxim was reading a SNR of 0, though the star was visible in the image and it could properly calibrate. It took about 30 minutes of rebooting Maxim for it to properly read the star. Once it did recognize it, it was reading an SNR of ~45.

    I also ran into a separate issue with the calibration. While the star would move left-right and up-down during calibration, the software was not reading the up-down motion properly. It correctly drew a line connecting the star's before/after position when moving left-right, but the up-down motion was off by 45 degrees. This was fixed after restarting Maxim.

    I haven't run into the disappearing star issue so far.
     
  7. Colin Haig

    Colin Haig Staff Member

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    Rebooting MaxIm is not the solution. Something else is going wrong.
    So let's try to get to the bottom of this.
    We'll want you to attach some information using [Upload a File] at the lower right.

    1. Did you check the shutter operation as suggested, by doing an autosave sequence so we have a set of lights and darks? We want to rule out a mechanical problem with the shutter.

    2. Please turn on the Track.log, and save the Calibration and Tracking images. That way, you can send over what MaxIm saw, and we can try to figure out what is going on.
    Saving Tracking images will take a bunch of space, so it's worth doing a couple tests and then turning it off.
    Here's what to turn on:
    Untitled.png
    Camera Control - Guide tab - Options [>] will bring up the menu.
    a) Check (turn on) Record Cal images - then run the calibration again. Send over a screen shot of the calibration with the "45-degree" problem, and the calibration images so we can see what is going on.
    b) Check (turn on) Record Tracking images - then when you do some tracking, we can see why SNR = Zero is being reported.

    3. Zip up your MaxIm settings folder, and attach it with [Upload a File]

    4. Describe your setup.
    e.g. what do you have for a telescope, focuser/rotator, what the focuser draw tube diameter is (eg 3 inch), what mount you have.

    Then hopefully we can hunt down what the issue is.
     
  8. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    This is a bit of a mess, but I'll include everything here to see if it helps you out, in the guider.zip file. I'm including the Maxim DL log as well. We did some work with collimating the telescope up until 00:52 when we started to use the guider. We again ran into the issue of the guider reading a S/N of 0 and the 45 degree error. The S/N of 0 errors seem to correlate to the "Warning - Error getting guider imageError" messages that appear in the logs. Screenshots of the 45 degree error are attached. Unfortunately in the process of trying to fix this and closing/reopening Maxim DL the Record Tracking Images seemed to have been switched off, so we don't have a record of most of our images.

    We also ran into the issue of the guide star slowly fading from view (sadly, no images as mentioned above it was not saving them). In trying to fix this, we adjusted the guider exposure time (around 05:05), which allowed us to see the star, but we again ran into the issue of reading a low S/N and it couldn't guide. We again tried closing/reopening Maxim DL, which did fix it, but in another unfortunate set of events it seemed to overwrite the Tracker.log file so we don't have a full log of the night. However, when I did look at the Tracker.log file during the night, I could clearly see the column that reads "Bright" getting smaller and smaller as the guide star was disappearing. I think it got to like 40, when it started around 150. I'm assuming that's related to the brightness of the guide star.

    Two other things to note:
    When the guide star was fading from view, the telescope was still able to track well, in fact there was no real noticeable difference between guiding with a visible star, and guiding with the faded star. I'm confused by this as there was virtually no signal from the guider star, as seen in the images.
    We were using 5 second exposures for our guider, where the guide star eventually faded. There is an option under the Guider tab to clear the saved darks used for auto-calibration. When I selected that option and took another 5 second auto-calibrated exposure, the image appeared as normal and was not faded. This leads me to believe this is not a shutter operation error, but a software issue. It's like the dark frame itself is being altered somehow. Is there a way to see the dark used for auto-calibration? I could not find them in the GuideCal folder.

    If we get another observing opportunity I will try to get another more complete set of data.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    We have a 40 cm Ritchey-Chretien f/8 telescope with a German equatorial mount. There is no focuser, instead the secondary mirror adjusts as needed. We have a 2 inch draw tube. We have a guider, filter wheel with 1.25" filters, and a CCD 47-10 camera.
     
  10. Colin Haig

    Colin Haig Staff Member

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    Thanks for this.

    Some important setup data is missing.
    Likely in your excitement to get going :), the setup of the Optics, Site, and FITS Header data was missed.
    Our documentation could do a better job spelling out that it is necessary for calculations like resolution, Julian Date, Platesolving, and other info.

    In the log file:
    Code:
    00:53:03$5    Warning - Error getting guider imageError -
           Error computing arc seconds per pixel
           Focal length invalid or inaccessible
    
    Examining the sample FITS images you'll see the following in the FITS header keys:
    Code:
    FOCALLEN    = 0.0000000000000000 /Focal length of telescope in mm                 
    APTDIA      = 0.0000000000000000 /Aperture diameter of telescope in mm           
    APTAREA     = 0.0000000000000000 /Aperture area of telescope in mm^2   
    Please make the following change in MaxIm DL Pro:
    1. File... Settings... Optics
    Main Telescope
    Focal Length = 3200
    Aperture = 400

    Guide Telescope
    Focal Length = 2240 (because there is a 0.7x focal reducer lens in the SC-4C.)
    Aperture = 400

    This is necessary to calculate the arcseconds/pixel used in the guiding algorithm, as well as in PinPoint plate solving.

    2. File... Settings... Site
    Latitude, Longitude, Elevation (metres above mean sea level)
    Longitude is needed to correctly calculate Julian Date/Heliocentric Julian Date.
    All of the above may be used for PinPoint platesolving.

    3. File... Settings.. FITS Header
    You might want to put a brief note about Telescope and Observer so that 100 years from now, someone knows who did the image with what scope, and you get credit for the original discovery...

    4. PinPoint setup
    This isn't necessary to fix guiding, but it might help us figure out orientation and actual focal length of the system.

    Load an image that was shot after making the above corrections (step 1,2,3)
    Process... PinPoint Solve
    This will bring up the PinPoint window.
    Catalog Setup - you'll need to follow the PinPoint documentation, and setup an initial catalog.
    e.g. info here or in the built-in help: https://cdn.diffractionlimited.com/help/maximdl/MaxIm-DL.htm#t=PinPoint_Astrometry.htm

    At a minimum, set up the Hubble Guide Star Catalog GSC1.1
    You may also want to set up UCAC4 or ATLAS-REFCAT2, as you will be able to image faint targets.
    On my machines, I have a folder called "C:\stardata" which has the catalogs.

    [Search Sky Online] can generally solve most images, including when the scope is "lost" eg pointing coordinates unknown or off by more than a couple degrees.
    It uses Astrometry.NET on the internet. Alternatively, you can set up ANSVR from ADGSoftware and have a local equivalent.
    If your pointing is reasonable accurate, the [Process] button will be able to plate solve.
    When I made the an educated guess I got a focal length of 2933, which I would then put into the guide telescope focal length in step 1.
    Note that the focal length will change when the secondary mirror is moved, but I'd rather be closer.

    5. Checking guider orientation
    I loaded the 5 GuideCal images into MaxIm, and used View... Animate to blink them.
    It looks like there is motion in in both RA and Dec and the guider is nicely oriented across the row/columns.

    6. You could probably increase the Calibration Time
    Camera Control - Guide
    [Settings]
    Change the X Axis and Y Axis calibration time from 10s to perhaps 20s. Am not sure if 30s will work as the guide star might move off the chip.
    The more the scope moves, the better the calibration.

    7. You could probably increase the Binning
    Camera Control - Guide
    [Settings]
    Exposure Settings - Binning
    You might want to try 3x3 or 4x4 to get a better match of pixel size vs the focal length.

    8. Other stuff
    I am not sure what exactly is going on with the "45 degree problem". Perhaps if you tackle the above suggestions, it won't occur.
    If it does, let's dig into it some more.
     
  11. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    Ok we'll give that a shot. Is there a way for us to see the auto-dark that's being used for calibration? I did not see it under the Cal files.
     
  12. Colin Haig

    Colin Haig Staff Member

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    I don't think so.
     
  13. Doug

    Doug Staff Member

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    No, the auto-dark is taken on they fly and not saved. If you want to see your calibration frames, take them manually and use Full Calibration mode (via Set Calibration).
     
  14. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    I set the focal length in the program (I had it set for the main camera, but not the guider!), and it was able to calibrate and track properly on the first try, so hopefully that fixed it. We picked a fairly bright star to track on so we did not see it fade from view like before, but I did see the background counts go to 0 through the night. If the star were fainter I suspect it may have faded again, but can't say for certain.

    I have the data saved but haven't had a chance to collate it all. I'll update if I get the data together, or if it happens again. I should be able to get an observation in this Wednesday.
     
  15. Colin Haig

    Colin Haig Staff Member

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    This sounds like it is operating properly. If you find anything anomalous, let us know.
     
  16. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    I think I figured the disappearing star issue - there is some light leaking through the shutter on the guider when taking the initial dark. At the end of a recent observing run I took a single exposure using the guider with the Expose option under the guider tab. That image is attached as guider_1.fit. It is using an auto-calibration dark that was taken at the start of the night. Right after that image was taken, I cleared the saved dark and took another image with the Expose option, which took a new auto-calibration dark, and produced guider_2.fit. The background is noticeably bright in the second image, as it is not being subtracted off as much as it was when using the dark at the beginning of the night.

    So if that issue comes up again I should be able to solve it by clearing the saved dark and doing another one.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Colin Haig

    Colin Haig Staff Member

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    I'm going to ask my colleague @Doug to comment.
    I'm not certain if the shutter is sticking a tiny bit - there is a small adjustment that can be made in the field.

    Did you happen to save a few dark frames that you could send over?
    It might be worth setting up an autosave sequence to shoot a few dozen alternating darks/lights just to see if you get partial coverage or sticking open.
     
  18. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    I didn't save any darks, I didn't think about the issue until the end of the night. I'll try to get some next time.
     
  19. Doug

    Doug Staff Member

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    If the shutter sticks, then yes it will cause the star to "disappear". However, it's surprising that the shutter would stick... it's a very simple design. Please keep me updated.
     
  20. Michael Rodruck

    Michael Rodruck Cyanogen Customer

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    I don't think the shutter is sticking. I'm attaching a set of zip file of images of a test run alternating light and darks as requested.

    I'm also including a dark taken at the start of the night (AG_start.fit) and at the end of the night (AG_end.fit). The median counts in the dark at the end of the night are lower by about 100.
     

    Attached Files:

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